Demolition of Babri Masjid and Aftermath – Speech by Subramanian Swamy, March 13, Madina Education Centre, Hyderabad

I really hope this is a dead and dusted thing.

Why they talk about Ayodhya? Why don’t they talk about the most Holy and Important Tirthas of Kailash and Man Sarover?

Madina Education Centre in Hyderabad, run by Madina Education and Welfare Society, is silently and sincerely waging a relentless war against the evil forces of communal fanatics bent upon destroying the national fabric of Indian Society by creating chaos, disharmony and distrust among the people to build their theocratic empire over the Pyramids of human skulls. Many top intellectuals of all hues, except, those belonging to the outfit of merchants of hate and disharmony, from different corners of the country were invited to speak and spread the message of emotional integration and communal unity which was the high water mark of Indian history till yesterday and which is sought to be erased by the RSS and its misguided stooges from the face of Hind Mata.

The one among a few intellectuals of the country Dr. Subramanyam Swamy, the Janata Party Supremo and former Law Minister in Chandra Shekar’s government at the centre, was invited to speak on “Demolition of Babri Masjid and Aftermath”. On March 13, at 10-30 A.M. the meeting was held in the vast well furnished and well equipped Sir Syed Hall at the Madina Education Centre’s multi storied prestigious building at Public Garden Road, Hyderabad. Yet another top Intellectual of the Indian nation Dr. Syed Hashim Ali Akhtar, former Vice Chancellor of Osmania and Aligarh Universities was in the chair. The tape-recorded speech of Dr. Subramanyam Swamy had appeared in the April, 4-11,1993 issue of “The Anti-Corruption Weekly” and the same is being reproduced in this booklet, with the permission and courtesy of the weekly Magazine.

– The Publishers

Mr. President and friends

I have been requested to speak in English and I will speak for half an hour or less and than I would like questions from you. They can be asked freely and frankly and either in Hindi, Urdu, Tamil, English or in Chinese and also in Telugu. My son-in-law is a Telugu, so I am beginning to learn Telugu, may be by next visit I will be able to speak in Telugu also. I would like to learn all 16 languages.

Dec. 6 a turning point in Indian history

The topic given to me is Babri Masjid Demolition and its aftermath. In fact December 6 will be taken as a turning point in Indian history. If we take a right turn, the correct turn, this country will become strong and a great power in the world. If we take the wrong turn it will be doomed. Then came such an occasion in our history in the past. For example the Mahabharat War was one such decisive turn in our history and in many ways what is happening today is very similar to what happened in the Mahabharat War. In fact I was telling the honourable President, that many of the people who are engaging in the criminal acts today are the people with whom I and many of my colleagues have worked together during emergency. In fact many people ask me, “20 years ago you worked with these people, today you are criticising them. What is the justification of that?” That same question Arjuna asks Sri Krishna also, “How can I fight Dronacharya, Bhishmacharya, and all these people with whom I worked”? In fact Dronacharya was his teacher. So Krishna said “You are not with individuals, you are on the side of Dharma, if you honestly think Dharma is on the other side, then you go to the other side. If you think they are the Adharmic forces, then it is your responsibility to kill them” and that is what he did

Idea behind the madness

Today, irrespective of whether we are Hindus or Muslims we have to fight these forces in the most resolute way and uproot them from the body politic of India. I was happy to see Narasimha Rao the Prime Minister of India, talks for the first time, that legislation should be brought to see that political parties do not harvest religious fanaticism. That will be only one step, but the most important step should be, that first we should understand the idea behind the madness that has taken place in the country.

What is RSS ?

The Rashtriya Sevak Sangh is the core of this madness. BJP is the front organisation of the RSS. To a point all understand this. We should all keep this in mind, when A.B. Vajpayee and Advani talk about negotiations, or when Prime Minister wants to negotiate with them. I say it is useless, because these people are players in the hands of the RSS, which controls them. They may appear different, one may appear more moderate than the other but ultimately they all take orders from the RSS. Whether it is BJP, the Vidyarthi Parishad, the Hindu Munnani, Viswa Hindu Parishad or any of these organisations. The RSS ideology or its ideological thrust must be understood if we have to combat it. After the Babri Masjid demolition, the first thing we must do, is to disabuse the minds of the people, that RSS stands for Hindus.

It is not Pro-Hindu ; It is purely anti-Muslim

It is not a pro-Hindu organisation, it is an anti-Muslim organisation They may use Hindu slogans, but their thrust and direction is against Muslims. Every single programme of RSS, Viswa Hindu Parishad, Bajarang Dal or other RSS front organisations is purely anti-Muslim, in content. They will talk about Ayodhya, but why don’t they talk about Kailash Manasasarovar. The most Holy and shall I say most important Tirthas for Hindus is Kailash-Man Sarovar and it is in the possession of Chinese today. In fact even Thirtha Yatrees or pilgrims could not visit Kailash Manasa Sarovar till 1981. I took up the issue in 1978 with the Chinese For three years I negotiated with them with the encouragement of two Prime Ministers Moraiji Desai and later Indira Gandhi despite her political differences with me. I was able to persuade the Chinese to reopen the door of Kailash Manasa Sarovar since 1981 when I became first thirtha yatree to Kailash Manasa Sarovar.

Why not any RSS, BJP VHP leader visited Kailash, Manasasarover yet ?

Every year 200 Indians or Hindus have gone to Manasa Sarovar walking up about 110 kms and coming back. But not one BJP leader, one RSS leader or Viswa Hindu Parishad leader has yet visited Kailash Manasa Sarovar. Thay have not raised the issue that the Chinese should return Kailash Manasa Sarovar to India. It is a place where lord Shiva and his wife Parvathi lived, that is the place towards which the Pandavas ultimately proceeded and only Yudhistar and a dog reached Kailash Manasa Sarovar, everybody else died on the way.

Why Hindus raise the issue of Kashmir ?

Jawaharlal Nehru in one of his books has asked, “Why the Hindus raise the issue of Kashmir and not of other states”? Why? because there are no Muslims in Kailasa Manasa Sarovar, so they are not interested. Take this article 370 of the constitution, which they say is objectionable and ask whether Hindus are outsiders. The Hindus out side the state can not buy the land in Kashmir. This they can not, tolerate. This one country, but why don’t they talk about article 371A, 371B, 371C and so many articles and subsections of article 371 whicth say that in lowspity area of Himachal Pradesh the outsiders cannot buy land. In Mizoram outsiders cannot buy land. In Arunachal you can not buy land, there are so many states where you can’t buy land. Even to some limited extent, there are restrictions in the Telangana area of A.P. But they never raise it, why don’t they talk about Himachal why they don’t take about Arunachal. If they were to say article 370 and 371 should go I can merit in the argument. But they will talk about 370, because 370 means something harmful will happen to the Muslims, that you will go to Kashmir where in the valleys there are Muslims, 371 means, Himachal, where there are no Muslims so they are not interested. Every single plank of RSS ideology is anti-Muslim. There is nothing pro-Hindu about it.

Why population growth of Muslims is more ?

They talk of uniform civil code, how could the Hindu lives will improve, if Muslims cannot marry more than one? Of course we know from census that more percentage of Hindus marry more than one. Then Muslims, in fact anybody who married more than one is not of right mind. There are so many Indian political leaders who have more than one wife, I have not seen BJP object to them. Ram Vilas Pas wan has 3 wives, Karunanidhi had got 5 wives. Ram Jetmalani the Vice-President of BJP has 2 wives why not speak about them. I want to know if one Muslim man marries more than once, how can the Hindus get effected or Muslims themselves? 50% of the Muslim population are women and the other half are men, if one marries more than once, it means depriving another man of a wife. The people who should object are Muslims.

But they see the population growth of Muslims is more than Hindus. Not very much more than Hindus but a little more. What is the reason, the population growth rate of Kerala Muslims is less than those of the Uttar Pradesh Hindus? What is the reason that the Tamil Muslims have a population growth rate less than that of Bihari Hindus? What is the reason that rich Muslims have lower population growth rate than poor Muslims. What is the reason why rich Hindus have a lower population growth rate than poor Hindus?

How can Muslims become the majority within the next 25 years ?

Why Hindus collectively have lower rate of growth than Muslims? The per capita income of Hindus is higher than the per capita income of Muslims. If you bring the per capita income of Muslims on the same level as of Hindus, the difference in growth could disappear. This is Scientific Analysis. But there is no place for scientific analysis. It is all emotion. Somebody tells me the other day, one BJP leader speaking in an election meeting said, that 25 years after now Muslims will become majority in this country at this rate of growth. I had a pocket calculator, I calculated and said the rate of growth worked out the exponential curve, now tell me how it is possible? In 25 years the share of Muslims population will rise from 12.06% to 12.46%. How is it a majority? How is 12.46% majority?

Scrap concept of Hindu un-divided family

Why should Muslims have separate laws? Do not Hindus have separate laws for them? Undivided family is given tax privileges, which Muslims do not get. As Law Minister I had made the bill that the concept of Hindu un-divided family must be scraped. The biggest opposition came from the BJP wallas because most of them are from this trading community, they get the maximum tax exemption. Are not Hindus getting more tax advantages than Muslims? I am saying this to tell you the way to combat the RSS poisonous propaganda. Yes, why not one do counter this propaganda? Of course, there are strong methods we have to use where necessary. But this propaganda must also be done and that is why groups like yours are important. Because these simple ideas that RSS planting is taking root because there is no challenge to these ideas, there is no one to confront them.

I am ready to challenge RSS

I am ready any time you call, any leader from BJP with my similar kind of background who has been either a minister or is an All India president or something and I am ready to debate. I will massacre him in the debate not physically but intellectually and logically in front of you. They never engage in a debate with me. They never, even clash with me, in parliament very much, because they know, I am aware of all the arguments. So when I talk about the aftermath, I am talking about propaganda war. There the battle has been lost. The war is not lost. We still have the time to win the war. But the battle on propaganda, BJP has gone ahead because they have managed to penetrate the Home minsitry. They have managed to penetrate the Doordarshan. They have managed to penetrate the Newspapers and slanted news is always appearing from their side and it is not being countered from our side. Therefore educated people must get together to meet this propaganda challenge.

Why was not Babri Masjid issue raised before 1985 ?

Now take this Babri Masjid issue itself, when did the BJP first raise it, BJP was born in 1980. They say it is a reincarnation of Jansangh, Jansangh was a reincarnation of Hindu Maha Sabha. Now when did Hindu Maha Sabha raise this issue? Never. When did the Jansangh raise Masjid issue? Never They were in power in Uttar Pradesh in 1967, the Deputy Chief Minister was a Janasangh man called Ram Prakash Gupta, the Home minister at that time was also Janasangh-RSS man. They were in power for 2 1/2 years in U P in 1967. Tell me one occasion when they raised it, they did not raise it In 1977 it was a Bharatiya Janata Party of which I am president, although the party has become extremely small because of splits and so on. I am hoping to revive it with the help of new generation. But the Minister of UP, the Minister of Delhi; had they raised the question of Babri Masjid? No. They first raised it in 1985.

How is it known Rama was born there?

In 1985 they raised it because, in 1984 elections they got only 2 seats and they thought this is the only way to get the seats That is the first time they raised the issue. And what is the issue they raised? Because Rama was born here, therefore Babri Masjid must go, how did you know Rama was born here. There is no proof, that Rama was born there.

Babri Masjid dispute: Creation of thieves

Some people in 1949, in the dark of night, climbed the gate of masjid went in and kept some murtis there. That is not the way Rama is supposed to be born. By stealth Babri Masjid dispute was created by thieves, who climbed the gate in the night over there who went to plant murtees there. Then the dispute was created.

The secular forces are on the defensive. They would say Hindus but are ashamed to say so, Garv se bolo Hindu” I have also seen a lot of people to get defensive. They have not bothered to tell me, because then I would have turned around and say many of our leaders drink Alchohol after 6P.M. in the night. Is it a good Hindu sign? Rama was after all Maryada Purushottam, so they couldn’t argue with me because they become uncomfortable. I used to say, you are not pro-Hindu but you are anti-Muslim. If you want to be pro-Hindu then fight against casteism. Everybody should consider themselves Hindu only, not Rajput, Brahmin, Thakur etc., then you are campaigning for Hindus. Campaign against dowry system, campaign against untouchability for strengthening Hindu society, this is what I mean by renaissance.

Have they campaigned? Do you know of any campaign of RSS and it’s front organisations against dowry? No. Or Sati, No. On the contrary Gwalior Rajmata says “I would have commited sati, but I had two small children so I could not do so”. So they have justified Sati. Bhairav Singh Shekawat went and attended Sati functions in Rajasthan. So they are not for Hindu reform and for strengthening of Hindu society. Today if all Hindu’s say that they are no more concerned to which caste they belonged to and they are only a Hindu first and last, Hindu society will become very strong. But they won’t talk about that.

This is an outcome of British old imperialist approach. They are only anti-Muslim. If you want to be Hindu there is nothing wrong in being a good Hindu, but campaign for Hindu renaissance, campaign for strengthening the Hindu society.

Anti-Sikh, Anti-Buddhist stance 

The Sikhs were born to defend Hindus and they defended Hindus, their gurus died for Hindus. But the RSS and BJP in Punjab, took an anti-Sikh attitude. The RSS and BJP is taking an anti-Buddhist attitude in Gaya. Their whole thesis and foundation is based on hate and hate is what they propagating, so don’t miss this one important point. Why am I labouring on this point? It is because propaganda victory is absolutely an essential point.

They are facists ; they are cowards

Yes, if you use strength, you can bring them to book, because I know the basics. The basic character of fascist is that he is basically a coward. I can give you an instance before I get deeper into Babri issue, I do feel that the Prime Minister did not show necessary firmness for preventing the incident of December 6th. I have a good opinion of Prime Minister. I am one of the people helping him to stay in power. Because many out of 20 Janata Dal M.P.s who came out of Janata Dal and former Janata Dal(A) Group are largely subject to my influence. I can influence most of them to go the way I would like them to go about and they are today supporting the government. Narsimha Rao is a good man, but goodness is not enough. Toughness, where toughness is necessary must be shown.

This is the way to rule the country When I became law Minister along with commerce portfolio, the Prime Minister was Chandra Sekhar. Within three days of taking over of office RSS announced Kar Seva for 9th December, 1990 and they said they will go ahead and do Kar Seva. We just become the government and we were confronted with this. What do we do? A meeting of the cabinet committee of political affairs was called. We took the decision on my urging, that RSS insists on Kar Seva, then one week before the kar Seva all top leaders of BJP, Bajrangdal, Viswa Hindu Parishad should be arrested under National Security Act and sent to Laksha Dweep and Andaman for some time, and this decision was to be communicated them. Mr. Chandra Sekhar the Prime Minister, communicated this to Mr. Singhal of Viswa Hindu Parishad at the residence of Raj Matha. He went there and asked this Kar Seva be called of as otherwise they will be arrested under the National Security Act. Singhal said, “there is the Hindu wave in the country, you will have to shoot Sadhus”. Chandra Sekhar said, “I am prepared to shoot all the Sadhus because the Sadhus’ Karthavya and duty is to go to heaven and I will make it faster for them. With in 3 days of our telling them, that they will be locked-up under the National Security Act, if they do the Kar Seva then kept silent. Seven months we were in office, they never raised Babri Masjid issue even once.

Why negotiate on Masjid with them ?

So therefore it was wrong strategy on part of P.V. Narasimha Rao to negotiate with them. There is nothing to negotiate on Babri Masjid. It is there, how the dispute is to be resolved? During the time we were in the government, Muslim leaders and leader of, Babri Masid Action Commitee came. All these people came and said there is a gesture, if it can be demonstrated by the archeological evidence and upheld by a Supreme Court Judge in the commission of enquiry hearing that there was a temple which was demolished and a masjid is built on top of it then it is against the Quran to recite Namaz there and therefore we willingly give up the Masjid. But we first must have proof otherwise, because in secular India everybody has the right to preach religion, the masjid will remain there. What about the murtees inside there? We send army and have it cleared out.

In any case, may I tell you that according to Sastras, Agama Sastras, which lay down the rules or laws how a temple is to be built, and this applies now to the so called structure Ram Lalla Mandir, for which there is agitation, it is an illegal structure. It is immoral structure. It should be demolished immediately. Why because, it is against Hindu Dharma to have a Rama Lalla Mandir built where it was done. Agama Sastras say you can build a temple, only after you fast for forty one days. After that who ever fasted for forty one days they will do Prana Pratista ceremony and then only the idols will have to be installed and, it will be a mandir otherwise it is pap (sin).

Ram Lalla temple is against Hindu Dharma

Advani and Uma Bharathi & Company didn’t fast 41 days before they went to Ayodhya that day. On the 6th December, in fact they were eating rasgollas and samosas and all, I have seen video of that, they were not fasting, they didn’t do Pranapratista ceremony there. That Ram lalla mandir, is not Ram lalla mandir. That murti they have put there, doesn’t deserve to be worshipped, it is an illegal and immoral structure. I would urge Narsimha Rao government that in the interest of secularism the structure should be demolished completely because it is against Hindu Dharma, to have that as a temple. Then you appoint a commission of enquiry and determine whether a temple was there or not. I am not in favour of a masjid being built on that spot right away, because we want a permanent solution and permanent solution can only be, if as the Muslim leaders originally said, that if it can be shown that the mandir was there before and a masjid built on top of it, then we don’t want a masjid. If there was no temple there, before, an existing temple, a functioning temple, a working temple, then you can built a masjid there. On that basis the solution can be derived.

Murthi doesn’t deserve to be worshiped

Krishna Mandir, and God knows how many mandirs they demolished, they could do it and they could collect crores of rupees for it, so I am saying first of all that on the Babri Masjid issue, they are committing sin by going and doing pooja in the temple. It is against our Shastras, because they don’t know, if we explain them, they will stop going, they will not go. This must be done through the Doordarshan, what is the use of government owning Dooradarshan, if it doesn’t do this propaganda.

It is built on sin

So first of all I would say that today in aftermath in order to revive the confidence of the country and to effect the Hindu-Muslim unity, the Ram lalla mandir must be demolished, because it is not a mandir. it is built on sin. it is built on treachery. It is built on deceit, it is not built according to Agama Sastras. But where should be the temple-or masiid be built? It should be decided after the committee enquires.

Tamil Nadu : Hideout of RSS, VHP criminals

The other Haspect today is that there is pernicious propaganda in the country that Muslims are second class citizens, what I started with, I have with me, brought with me a tape of the speech given by Mr. Ashok Singal on 21st of February, in Madras. Today Tamil Nadu is a great sanctuary for all the wanted criminals of Viswa Hindu Parishad and RSS, they are all hiding there. They are in fact not hiding there, but are moving openly giving speeches.

Barkings of Ashok Singhal

On 21 st Feb. Ashok Singal addressed a rally in Madras city, I got the tape with me. I produced the tape in the Parliament. The BJP fellows didn’t want me to play it, in fact they were making technical objections, why I should not display the tape? What did he say in that? He says three things. Number one that Mahatma Gandhi only spoke what British wanted him to speak, in other words Mahatma Gandhi was stooge of the British. Two. it is an insult to the nation to call him Father of the Nation, it is also idea of the British to say that India is a new country, if it was new country Mahatma Gandhi was given the title of Father Not by the people of India, but by the British This is what Singhal says and thinks. He says, that if the Muslims do not accept that Rama, Lakshmana and Krishna as their fathers they should be deprived of the right to vote in the General Elections. I can give this tape to you any time you want

Now what is this, this is total preaching against constitution of India. This has to be effectively met, they have vulgarised the name Hindu, like Hitler, in the name of Nationalism, vulgarised the meaning of Nationalism, so we have to reply to this propaganda.

In what way the Muslims are second class citizens? If you preach what you want, then they have equal right to be Muslims. They have the right to be good Muslims. Does it say in Hinduism, that you have no right to preach other religions except your own religion? It does not matter what the Muslims are doing to their minorities in Saudi Arabia. Even in Pakistan or any where. We are not going to imitate them. Our society is different. It came out of the freedom movement. It came out of a joint struggle of Hindus and Muslims. It is true that some Muslims did not want to be part of India, but didn’t some Hindus want the Muslims to be a part of India.

Who raised the question of Pakistan First ?

Who raised the question of Pakistan first in Indian Context? The first time the demand for Pakistan was made by Veer Savarkar in 1923 in the Assembly of Hindu Maha Sabha. He said “we cannot leave Muslims to create another country and can not give it to them, partition the India and give it to them”. This was echoed later by Madan Mohan Malavya. In 1940, the Muslim League adopted this, called it Pakisthan. In 1942, Rajagopalacharya supported it, and 1947 the Congress Working Committee adopted it.

Look at the role of RSS in 1942 It is not a Hindu-Muslim question, some Hindus and some Muslims wanted Pakistan. This propaganda should be met. It is not being met. It is not being met in our text books It is not being met in our press. In fact I can produce documents to show that in 1942 RSS collaborated with British.

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